A World Where Almost Everything Is New

Hanada: While traveling around the world, you encountered the mud-dyed textiles of the Dogon people in Africa.

Susumu Jo: The first things I saw in a Dogon village were pieces with a brown background, painted with black and white designs. The one I chose is relatively simple, with a more patterned look. I think bolder, more striking designs are actually more common there.

Hanada: What was your first impression?

Susumu Jo: Africa was full of things I’d never seen before—there was almost nothing familiar (laughs). It felt like being hit with impact after impact, and mud-dyeing was one of those experiences. In Asia, I’m often mistaken for a local, but in Africa that never happened at all (laughs).

What You Can Feel Even Without Understanding the Meaning

Hanada: What is it about mud-dyeing that appeals to you?

Susumu Jo: It has strength. And it fits the African land, its people, and the air itself. Seeing it in Japan, that feeling might be hard to grasp. Strength… or maybe generosity, a sense of openness.
I believe the patterns originally have meanings, but I don’t know the religious significance. Even if you don’t understand those meanings…

Hanada: You still feel the Dogon people in it?

Susumu Jo: Exactly.

Neither the Original Nor Truly My Own

Hanada: Did you immediately feel that mud-dyeing would connect to your ceramic work?

Susumu Jo: Not at all. I had no such intention while traveling. Even in ceramics, large jars and pots can have that same openness and atmosphere.
When I first returned to Japan, I tried copying those kinds of forms. But it just didn’t quite work… well… I’m not that broad-minded myself (laughs).
I’m optimistic by nature, but being Japanese, my work tends to become more delicate, and that powerful openness never really comes through. They look similar, but they’re completely different things (laughs).
Look, I used to make things like this back then. Kind of like Hakushon Daimaō(a famous Japanese anime character).

Hanada: Interesting. It really feels like you were trying to copy it directly (laughs).

Susumu Jo: I realized, “This isn’t mine.”

Hanada: You tried imitating it, and while it resembled the original, it was neither the original itself nor truly your own.

Susumu Jo: Yes. Because it didn’t feel like mine, I tried making it more my own—and then none of the original atmosphere remained (laughs).

Hanada: (laughs)

Susumu Jo: At that point, there’s no reason to deliberately use African motifs anymore (laughs). Those works exist because of that land, that way of life, and those people.

What Kiseto Led Me To

Susumu Jo: For those reasons, I stepped away from that influence for a while. Then one day, when I saw Japanese Kiseto ware, I suddenly felt something very close to mud-dyeing.

Hanada: So Kiseto led you back to what you had sensed in mud-dyeing.

Susumu Jo: It was that atmosphere. Technically speaking, it was the color and the surface texture. That’s when I thought it might be interesting to combine African patterns with Kiseto, and that idea became the starting point.

Trying Many Different Approaches…

Hanada: Did iron painting come to mind right away as an option?

Susumu Jo: It was iron painting, yes, but at first I used a brush. With a brush, though, the lines come alive too much.

Hanada: When you say “the lines come alive,” that usually sounds like a good thing.

Susumu Jo: They become too lively—the lines don’t feel dyed anymore. Textiles don’t have movement, after all.

Hanada: And that led you to this technique.

Susumu Jo: This felt right. The way it bleeds is just right, too. I tried glazes that didn’t move at all and others that flowed more, and this balance worked best. I also tried drawing lines over white slip, but that didn’t feel quite right either.

Hanada: Did you experiment with different ways of drawing the lines as well?

Susumu Jo: Yes—different nail thicknesses, different ways of pulling the line… I felt it was better to construct it with a certain firmness.

Hanada: Listening to the sound, it felt like a rough, scraping noise—descending downward through small twists and turns. If the line simply slid straight down, I don’t think it would create that dyed feeling.

Susumu Jo: With very fine clay, the line pulls smoothly. But the clay I use contains quite a lot of stones, so it catches. That resistance is essential.

Hanada: Do you still keep the image of mud-dyeing in mind while working?

Susumu Jo: It was a trigger, and it has influenced me, but it’s not something I aim for consciously while working. It’s just one element among many.

Surprisingly Versatile

Hanada: You use iron-painted pieces yourself as well, don’t you?

Susumu Jo: They have patterns and a bit of impact, but I think they work surprisingly well with almost any food.

Hanada: They seem like they’d pair well with Southeast Asian or other ethnic cuisines.

Susumu Jo: They work with Japanese food, Western food—there’s not much they don’t suit.

Hanada: How does your family react?

Susumu Jo: They’re just always there, so nothing in particular.　I don’t think they’re especially conscious of them.

The Debut of Ovals

Hanada: We’re really looking forward to the two-person exhibition. The alphabet motifs you’ve been working on recently are interesting as well, so definitely.

Susumu Jo: I’ll try making a variety of things. I’m also planning to present oval shapes for the first time, so I look forward to it.

Hanada: These ovals look very practical and nice. We’re looking forward to it.